MTA Chair and CEO Janno Lieber appeared live on WNYC’s The Brian Lehrer Show to discuss the proposed 2025–2029 Capital Plan and other transportation-related issues.
A transcript of the interview appears below.
Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, as most of what we're doing today is covering the indictment of Mayor Eric Adams, I'm told that the indictment text was just released even in advance of the US Attorney's news conference. So, we are getting that together and I will read you all or parts of that. We'll see how much is there and how much it's legal-ese, but we will bring that to you in just a couple of minutes. But we do want to keep our appointment for at least a little while with somebody who's very relevant to your day-to-day life, corruption charge against the Mayor or no, and that's the MTA Chair Janno Lieber, for among other things, an update on the agency's capital plan. Yesterday, the MTA board unanimously signed off on the $65 billion plan, despite Governor Kathy Hochul axing congestion pricing, or at least pausing it, just before its implementation. Our region's public transportation needs massive repairs in order to continue serving New Yorkers in the subways, riding the buses, on the Metro-North and LIRR lines as well, of course. And Janno Lieber joins us now to explain why construction money is necessary, where it might come from without congestion pricing and to take some of your calls. So, listeners, if you're hanging on to talk about the indictment of the Mayor, we're not going to take those calls right now. We'll take a few phone calls for MTA Chair Janno Lieber about anything relevant to mass transit. 212-433-WNYC for you, 212-433-9692, call or text. Chairman Lieber always good to have you on the show and we always appreciate that you come on and take questions from listeners as well as me, hi.
MTA Chair and CEO Janno Lieber: You bet, Brian. And I just want to acknowledge, I appreciate your introductory comments because it is in moments like this when there's a lot of drama going on at political levels or even today's story about the potential indictment of the Mayor that people are focused on making sure that the city's core functions continue to operate well. And that is - we're one of those, and I appreciate what you said.
Lehrer: Do you have any reaction or pre action, since we don't know the details of the indictment yet, we're about to get those.
Lieber: No.
Lehrer: In terms of how it affects the MTA?
Lieber: No, I mean, listen, as I just said, these are the moments that, I don't know what the charges may or may not be. I don't have any, you know, I don’t have any special knowledge of this and it wouldn’t be appropriate for me to comment, it's not my position. But like all New Yorkers who care passionately about the city, it's a sad moment when, if there is an indictment of a sitting Mayor, that there's no question about that, but that is the moment when organizations like the MTA have to step up. I’ve talked to my team about this. New Yorkers are counting on us, 365, 24/7, to deliver service so they can do the basic stuff that makes life in New York possible and life in New York great. They’ve got to get to jobs, they’ve got to get to school, they’ve got to get to medical appointments, they’ve got to go see family, and they also have got to be able to enjoy the city, so that's our job and we take a special pride in the fact that like through 9/11, Superstorm Sandy, whatever is going to happen in New York, whether it's political or in the judicial system or the criminal justice system, or weather, or rain or snow or gloom of night, like the post office used to say, we're going to be there.
Lehrer: So, a $65 billion capital plan, big, big number. It can make our listeners’ eyes glaze over. So, talk about that a little bit, $65 billion over what period of time and to accomplish what for the riders of the system.
Lieber: Thanks, Brian. So, the law requires that the MTA adopt a capital program every five years and we are at that moment. We're obligated by law to adopt a new capital program for the years 2025 through 2029, and we have to do it by October 1 of this year. That's why the Board had to take action yesterday. The five-year capital program is the basic structure of how we maintain the system physically. Now, the people, you say $65 billion, anybody listening to any of these numbers would think it's a lot, $30 billion, $100 billion, but the benchmarks are relevant. JPMorgan Chase looked at our system and compared it to freight railroads and the utilities like Con Ed and they said a network of this age in this condition actually needs something closer to $100 billion over five years in order to maintain its basic functionality.
So, the Comptroller of the State of New York, Tom DiNapoli, who's a serious observer of capital investment by government agencies said we were in - that our 65 to 68, it’s actually $68 billion including the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority, that we're right smack in the middle of the range that he thought was appropriate. So, it's the right size. What does it do? It makes sure that the basic stuff that riders depend on does not fall into disrepair. We have 40 plus year old subway cars, if we let them keep running rather than replacing them, all of a sudden, they start to break down much more frequently. That means bad service. We have signals that were put in when Franklin Roosevelt was the President of the United States, those need to be replaced. On the line, where we replaced signals with modern signals, all of a sudden we're running every two and a half minutes, and 90 plus percent on-time. Signals matter.
We've got to make sure basic stuff like the concrete and steel that's 100 years old, if you subject it to water and chemicals and salt for that period of time, it crumbles, it stops performing its structural function. We have to invest in that. So, it's the basic stuff that makes sure that we have a great transit system, which has been getting better. We've been providing the best subway service in terms of on-time performance in more than a decade, the commuter railroads are running at 97+% on-time performance. So, we're headed in the right direction, but we have to invest. And Brian, one important point, thank you for letting me go on for a moment, is people forget that the one thing in New York State, in New York City, that is actually less expensive than the rest of the country, people invest a lot less in transportation because they don't have to buy two cars for a family to function. They can survive with one car or zero cars, like a lot of New Yorkers. And our transit system, if you live on mass transit instead of owning an automobile, it's 15% as expensive. So having the government invest in mass transit is good for people’s pocketbooks. We don't want to have to raise fares to maintain the system, that's why this capital program is really important.
Lehrer: Part of the discussion about this capital plan and the $65 billion price tag for it that I’ve been hearing and you tell me, if this is an actual fact, is that it's a little bit of a wishful thinking number in that, unlike a budget we may usually think of, where you know how much money is coming in, and therefore you know how much money you have to spend, you don't know where you're going to get all of the $65 billion especially because of the last minute pause on congestion pricing. Is that accurate?
Lieber: Yeah, this is the way for better or worse, that the system is set up. The law calls on the MTA to adopt a capital program. We don't have the power to decide where the money comes from. That is all on all the governor and the legislature. So, we're supposed to adopt a capital program. This a conservative capital program. It's only basically investing in what's necessary to maintain the system, what's necessary to make sure we're moving in the right direction in terms of ADA accessibility, with elevators, modern signals and electric buses, so we don't ruin the air and power climate change. So, this is a conservative capital program, but it always shifts to Albany to figure out how to fund it and it'll be a mix of state and local and federal and MTA dollars. They've got to make those choices. That's the way the system is set up. It's not a wish list. It is a minimum program necessary to meet the needs of the New York region in terms of its economy and people's lives.
Lehrer: So, here's Rachel in Harlem calling in for you with something very relevant to the subway headlines of the last week, and also to the budget. Rachel, you're on WNYC with MTA Chair Janno Lieber, hi.
Caller, Rachel in Harlem: Thank you so much, Brian and hello, Janno. Thank you so much for covering this because I think it's extremely important. I live on 125th street. I live in Harlem, where every bus is there, we have crosstown buses, the M60, the M125 and I've been seeing the times go up by double digits. Sometimes it's 40 minutes, right? I used to be a teacher, right? And I'm also a woman living by myself, right? It is very disconcerting for me to have to get off a train, get on a shuttle bus, extend my travel time by 40 minutes. I don't want to say no to an event. I don't want to say I have to leave early. I'm not Cinderella, my carriage ride is turning back into a pumpkin because, you know, the shuttle buses, the train stops running. You know, I mean, like every single week, the trains don't run in the middle of the day, the trains don't run at night. The trains don't run on the weekend. It stops my ability to actually enjoy the city. I have friends in Brooklyn, events in Brooklyn. I tell them I can't go. Why? Because of the trains and the buses. Do these actual MTA board chairs, whatever fancy titles, are they actually on the trains? And I even went to get Insomnia Cookies yesterday, right around like 10 o'clock at night. I went to a UN event for a foundation. Fancy, fun, right. I go and get a cookie. And the kids, they're 18 years old, and they're terrified. When they get off of work at Insomnia Cookies at 12 o'clock at night after being paid, what, minimum wage, whatever it is, they have to get on a shuttle bus. A little girl who’s 18 years old. What do you say to her? Right? You want her to be civically engaged. You want her to pay her fare. What are we actually getting in exchange for our fares?
Lehrer: And Rachel, let me –
Caller, Rachel in Harlem: When we think about climate change, right? The biggest way to solve climate change is to actually improve the system. And I'm tired of hearing, you know, when we raise the fare, when we do this and we do that, what is happening to the money that we pay right now? Since 9/11 –
Lehrer: I have to get a response from Janno Lieber for you, but I want to get you to another point Rachel. One other thing that you told our screener, if we got it right, did you also want to bring up the issue of fare evasion in some way?
Caller, Rachel in Harlem: Yes, I think the MTA is actually evading fares because if we pay the fare and what do we get in exchange? Shuttle buses, late trains. The times that I'm seeing sometimes when I am waiting as a woman, we’re thinking about domestic violence victims as well. When they get home later their boyfriend says what to them? Doesn’t trust them. What are we going to do for the actual people who need these trains - they're working hard. Do you not remember during COVID some guy got killed because he was a delivery worker, and he was waiting on a bus in Harlem?
Lehrer: Rachel I'm going to leave it there. A lot on the table from Rachel. Chairman Lieber, where would you like to start?
Lieber: Okay, a lot to unpack. And number one, Rachel, thank you, because you're obviously a user of the system. I want my customers to feel that we’re giving good service and they're satisfied. So that's our goal. I'm just pulling up the train times at 125th Street as we're talking. Bronx bound, the northbound ones, are two and three minute intervals right now on the , and , and downtown is, you know, one to five minutes on the , and . During the rush hour we're definitely thinking, we’re running frequent service. I need to take a look at what you're experiencing. 125th Street is an incredibly important crossroads, because we have both, lots of subways and also buses, as you said, and also the Metro-North.
I want to talk to you about your specific experience. I'd love to do it offline, but let me tell you, the subway numbers that we are all seeing, and we mark it very closely, and we don't just make it up. We are running service more reliably and more frequently than in the past.
Now, is there a lot of work going on in the system that can impact on you and other riders, absolutely, because if we don't do that construction work, and we do it in the off hours and on the weekends, the system will degrade, and you will get much worse service all the time. We have to maintain the system, but obviously we need to do it in a way that allows customers like you to continue to live your lives. I want you to be able to get to all the places you’re talking about.
And the third point is, with respect to buses. Yes, buses in Manhattan, in particular, are having trouble getting around. The bus speeds because of congestion, because of traffic conditions, are not where we all want them to be. There's no question that is one of the reasons that congestion pricing was adopted by the New York State Legislature. And obviously it's an issue of some controversy, but let's not kid ourselves. The recent stats show that it’s taking longer, not just for buses to get around, but ambulances, police vehicles, fire vehicles. We cannot ignore the fact that congestion is having a very negative impact on New Yorkers.
And finally, with respect to subway safety, everything you say about being concerned about people feeling comfortable and safe in the system is echoed by all of our riders, and you and I look at it the same way. People have to feel like the subway and the transit system is welcoming and safe. We have 10% less felony crime than we did before the pandemic. But that doesn't mean that people feel safe all the time, which is why we have to keep pushing on transit safety and make sure that it’s not just statistically safe, that it feels safe, and that is also part of my mission in working with the City and the NYPD and everybody in the region on crime, on subway safety.
Lehrer: And Rachel, thank you for your call. You know, when it comes to subway safety, our listeners, I can say, from the many calls and texts we've gotten over the last week or so about the police shooting incident in the subway, are very divided over what makes them feel more safe. Is it having armed police officers in the subway, some of our listeners definitely feel that they are made safer by that. Some of our listeners definitely feel they are made more at risk by that. And of course, we saw that very, very tragic incident where four people, including two bystanders, as well as the person with a knife, as well as one of the police officers was shot in what started as a fare evasion chase. So, what's your take on that incident and having the police department, armed police officers in the subway at all for the sake of fare evasion?
Lieber: Brian, it's not my position, you know, my role to take a position on whether that was effective police strategy, tactics, appropriate or otherwise. Because that is actually being investigated. There's a ton of video, a lot of the MTA video on the platform, inside the train. We now have cameras inside the trains, and we had it there. And the body cams and so on. So that's all being looked at by professionals who will determine if there was excessive –
Lehrer: And, Chairman Lieber, I have to jump in for a second, I apologize, to say that we are told that imminently, the mayor is going to be holding a press availability. And of course, given the indictment news this morning, we will go to it when it starts. It has not started yet, just letting you and the listeners know that we may jump here at a moment's notice. But go ahead, you can resume that answer.
Lieber: Okay, just to finish the thought, I recognize there's a lot of division of opinion on the issue of police in the system. But our riders, based on, you know, repetitive surveys, every neighborhood, every demographic group, gender, otherwise, people do want to see uniformed police in the system. That makes them feel safe. But that doesn't mean it's the only tool. We are, we've done a lot with cameras to make sure we have much more video of what's going on. The governor paid for us to do a lot more cameras inside the entire subway system. We have mental health workers that we have deployed to try to bring some of the people who are suffering from mental health in the public space indoors to get treatment. That's another factor in making the system feel safe. And it's also better for those people. And we are also deploying unarmed gate guards to try to help deal with the fare evasion issue but without uniformed police. So, we are trying to advance the cause of customer safety as well as the feeling of safety, as well as the statistics on safety. And to do it not exclusively with NYPD, but not ignoring the fact they are part of the pack. And I understand you have to move along. Go ahead.
Lehrer: Well we’ll move along to the mayor when he starts. I’m just letting you and the listeners know that we’re told that that is imminent. So we will move to that when he does start. But in the meantime, I want to play you a clip if we can get through it in time of a guest we had on earlier in the week, and that is New York City Council Member Tiffany Cabán. We were talking about the shooting incident in the subway. And I asked, well, if you don't want armed police down there, which she doesn’t, how could you more effectively propose or as effectively enforce the fare without using the NYPD? And listen to what she said. Here's 30 seconds of Tiffany Cabán.
NYC Council Member Tiffany Cabán: I am among the folks that have been, you know, part of the chorus that are saying that the subway should be safe and free. Public transit is a public good, and this isn't just a crazy, novel thing. The free transit experiments have gone well around the world. They're leading to increased mobility and economic growth. They're taking burdens off of low-income people. And by the way, when you increase mobility, when you spur economic growth, when you take burdens off of low-income people, safety and health increases.
Lehrer: Make mass transit free. And when I followed up and asked, well, where would you get all the billions of dollars for that? She said, fairly tax the rich. Your reaction?
Lieber: Well, I don't live in the world where we can up with billions and billions overnight. So that issue is, you know, the cost impact is - the budget impact is definitely an issue. But I will say this, you know, my entire life in New York has been about - I believe passionately in transit as a tool of equity and affordability. And you know, that is part of our mission at the MTA. But I don't necessarily believe that the thing that's most affordable about New York, that we have to give a subsidy to the people who can afford that very affordable fare of three bucks compared to the cost of owning a car. I am more focused on targeted affordability. That's why the MTA has been a big supporter and advocate for Fair Fares, which is, gives a 50% discount to low-income New Yorkers. That's why we pushed the student OMNY cards because we're trying to turn the students into real customers. Get used to using it. That's why we're doing a lot of other things to make the transit system, like the commuter rail system we've made 40% less expensive for people who are using commuter rail inside New York to cut their commutes. So, targeting affordability at the people who need it, I believe that's the way to approach the affordability issue. Just giving it to everybody who has plenty of resources to pay for it, when it's already the one thing that's cheapest about New York, doesn't necessarily make sense to me. It might, and historically, when you, I don't accept the idea that these, what she calls “the free transit experiments,” have been universally successful. They've had mixed results around lots of places, including in Europe, where one or two places have made transit truly free. And we're going to continue to focus on making it affordable for New Yorkers who especially need that extra help. That's our approach right there.
Lehrer: Let’s see if we can sneak in one more listener, call for you. Jennifer in Hell's Kitchen, you’re on WNYC with MTA Chair Janno Lieber. Hi, Jennifer.
Caller, Jennifer in Hell’s Kitchen: Good morning, Brian. Hi, Chairman Lieber. I want to come back to something you said about the basic stuff that riders depend on. And I would argue that elevators are something that everyone depends on, whether you're a person with mobility issues or a parent with a stroller or a delivery person. And there is a legal case that the MTA has been fighting about elevator maintenance for seven years. And I want to hear what you have to say about this, because you're spending millions of dollars over seven years on legal fees. And those millions of dollars, with this crazy capital plan you have in front of you, and a budget gap that has to be solved by Hochul and other legislators, you have a solution right in front of you, which is settle this case and then you have money to pay for elevator maintenance.
Lehrer: Jennifer, I have to leave it there. We have 30 seconds more with Janno Lieber.
Lieber: Jennifer is one of the every-month activists for ADA issues at the MTA Board meeting. And I know her well. But let me just tell you, this MTA has done elevators and accessibility five times as fast as all the prior MTAs. I've made it a personal priority. People are thrilled with what we're doing. What she's talking about is the fact that the MTA used to have a lot of broken elevators. We're now at 97% availability. Well in excess of what other systems, transit systems–
Lehrer: But we do need a lot more elevators, right?
Lieber: You're goddamn right. And that's one of the reasons that we need that capital program that we proposed. 66 new stations will be done, knocking it out so that all New Yorkers, whether they're in a wheelchair or they have a stroller, or they have a shopping cart, or they're just at the age where getting up and down stairs ain't possible anymore. Everybody should be able to use this great transit system, and that is a passion of all of us at the MTA.
Lehrer: MTA Chair Janno Lieber. Thanks, as always, for joining us. We appreciate it.
Lieber: You bet.